Research On Religion » Tim Keller

Jordan Lorence on Religious Property Cases

tonygill — Sun, 11 May 2014 08:00:19 +0000

Access to property is very important for religious organizations as it allows congregants to have a regular place to meet. But property does not come free of restrictions on use; governments often set policies that can facilitate or hinder how a religious group uses property. We discuss four court cases pertaining to property access and use with Jordan Lorence, senior counsel and senior-vice-president of the Office of Strategic Initiatives for the Alliance Defending Freedom. Our survey of these court cases includes issues pertaining to whether congregations can gain access to public property (most notably public schools), whether or not churches are tax exempt on their property, the type of signage available to religious organizations, and minimum acreage requirements imposed on houses of worship.

Our conversation begins with a bit of chit-chat about Minnesota, Tonka Toys, and what it is like to argue cases before the US Supreme Court. We then dive into our main topic, which is the issue of church property. Jordan reveals that he became involved in this area of litigation simply based upon the number of court cases that have been popping up over the past several decades. He mentions that many of these cases are prompted both by “equal access” concerns (i.e., can a religious group lay claim on property that is similar to a secular group’s claim) and the tax-exempt status of faith-based organizations. Not surprisingly, if a confessional group would like to occupy property and that property is tax exempt, local governments might be reluctant to allow these groups to use that space over a concern of foregone revenue.

The first case we examine in detail pertains to whether or not churches (and synagogues, mosques, etc.) can rent space in public schools during the weekend to hold worship services. The specific case where this is being challenged in the Bronx Household of Faith v Board of Education of the City of New York. Jordan details the history of this church and the conflict surrounding whether or not it can gain access to this public space, a conflict that dates back to the mid-1990s. Jordan notes that of the 50 largest school districts in the U.S., this is the only place where churches are not allowed to rent public school space for worship services. What constitutes “worship services” (as compared to a Bible study group) is one of the definitional issues that we wrestle with. Mr. Lorence reviews the arguments on both sides of the case and talks about where this litigation currently sits following a 2-1 decision against Bronx Household in the 2nd Circuit in early April.

Our conversation moves from New York City to Arizona, a place where one might think religious property rights issues are not as contentious. Nonetheless, we talk about two current cases winding their way through the court system. The first case, Church of the Isaiah 58 Project of Arizona v La Paz County involves a lien placed upon a small church for not paying $50,000 in back taxes. The church claims it has tax exempt status, but the county is requiring proof from the I.R.S. although the state of Arizona has granted the organization such status albeit not for all the year’s of its existence. This generates an interesting conversation about the role that taxes play in determining how local governments handle religious property claims. The second case from Arizona does not deal with real estate per se, but rather the regulations placed on church signage. The issue in Reed v Town of Gilbert centers around how churches face greater restriction on the size of, and duration to which, signs advertising worship are displayed. While the church organization has lost at the lower court level, this is a case that has garnered a great deal of attention from some big name legal scholars and is awaiting a set of decisions from the US Supreme Court on whether (and how) it will proceed.

Our final case involves a rather interesting twist on church property claims. In New Generation Christian Church v Rockdale County, instead of limiting the maximum size of church property, the local government is requiring a small congregation to purchase a minimum of three acres for its activities even though the congregation does not need this much land. During this portion of the conversation, and echoing some earlier discussion, we reflect upon how the definition of “church” or “worship service” can play a large role in determining how religious groups fit with various regulations. We conclude with Jordan’s thoughts on whether the legal environment involving church property has become better or worse for churches over the years. Where equal access cases involving the use of public space have tilted in favor of religious use over the past few decades, issues involving the actual real estate owned by religious organizations has not. Jordan finishes up with a bit of typical Minnesota commentary. Recorded: April 30,2014.

Bill Clark on an Academic’s Spiritual Journey

tonygill — Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:00:04 +0000

In a personal interview that has a different flavor than many of our other episodes, we follow the spiritual journey of Prof. William Clark, a professor of political science at the Univeristy of Michigan, from his childhood years up until the present. While we have featured the personal stories of other guests on our show — such as cowboy preacher Dan Stiles and street preacher Jeff Rose — this discussion takes on a unique twist in that we ask Bill to use his own familiarity with the sociology of religion to reflect upon how his life informs us about the changing religious landscape more generally. Bill specializes in the study of international and comparative political economy, writing on such things as financial institutions, yet he nonetheless retains a close familiarity with what scholars who focus on religion are writing about.

We begin the journey with Bill growing up in New Jersey in a Catholic household. His close interaction with the Church has him considering the priesthood for a short time, though this is never realized. Instead, his interests in architecture and music take him along a different path in college. It is early in his college career, though, when he experiences a falling out with religion following the death of his father. This incident issues in a spiritual dry spell in his life and we follow the academic and professional trajectory of Bill through this period, which extends through his graduate training at Rutgers and first job down in Georgia. Despite his turn to a more secular life, he does marry a woman who remains more-or-less connected to her non-denominational religious roots and they begin a family together. The birth of their children draws Bill’s wife into weekly services with a desire to raise them with a moral foundation, while Bill admits to staying at home reading the New York Times on Sunday. Nonetheless, Bill does attend services on occasion and he admits to being rather argumentative with the pastors and their messages being that as an academic he was trained to disagree with somebody after a 40 minute sermon, irrespective what was being said. This academic personality trait becomes important later in his life as we see with his next move, which is northward to Princeton for a post-doc fellowship.

It is at Princeton where Bill’s spiritual journey takes an important turn. They connect to a Christian Missionary Alliance church and Bill, through a series of seemingly small but important events, begins engaging a small Bible study group and, after getting a job at NYU and making the long train commute, has a regular dinner discussion with the pastor of his church. These small group discussions and personal contact with the pastor play a much more important role in bringing Bill back to the faith than the large Sunday service experience, an interesting sociological observation that reveals a great deal about how people interact with faith and helps us to understand where Bill is today. He then discusses his conversion experience, which has both its small steps and its “brick wall” moment. Bill, at this point, makes a very intersting observation — it is the sociological factors that matter for the direction of one’s conversion, but there is still more to the process than just that.

We then move up to New York City. An exhaustive commute and the opportunity to get into NYU housing allows the Clark family to move to the Big Apple. It is here we discuss his involvement with the creation of a start-up church associated with the McManus bothers’ Mosaic Church in California. We delve into the experience of creating this church and what was unique about what he was doing. This portion of our conversation also recalls some of the insights provided in an earlier podcast with Tony Carnes about New York religion, namely that spirituality in New York is not always the typical Sunday service experience, but rather finds ways to work itself into some unusual cracks and corners of the city. This discussion leads us to reflect upon what the nature of our religious landscape looks like — not necessarily declining religiosity, but rather changing forms of religiosity that appears to many (incorrectly) to be a loss of faith.

The podcast closes with Bill’s most recent academic move to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Tony is given some academic advice on how to be more attractive to other schools (namely rely upon divine providence) and then we discuss how Bill’s spiritual life is again reshaped. Bill once again gets connected with what might be considered a more traditional-style of church, plugs into a small group format, and then eventually takes an interesting missional step outside of the church building, which is where he finds himself today. We conclude with Bill’s thoughts on the recent hubbub about the rise of “religious nones” in America and what he has learned on his academic and spiritual journey. Recorded: May 21, 2013.