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John Owen IV on Confronting Political Islam, Historical Lessons

tonygill — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:00:22 +0000

Can 16th century rebellions in Scotland, France, and the Netherlands be useful in helping us understand the international politics of ISIS, the Arab Spring, and other popular movements surrounding the rise of political Islam? What about how the US reacted to various socialists during the Cold War? Prof. John Owen IV, professor of politics at the University of Virginia, explores these unique historical comparisons and more as a means of understanding how the United States and Europe engage the ideological phenomenon known broadly as Islamism. This intriguing interview is sure to be an eye-opener!

Despite discussing a book entitled Confronting Political Islam (see link below), we begin with an examination of three Calvinist rebellions in 16th century Europe involving Scotland, France, and the Netherlands. Prof. Owen points out that the title of his book is “Six Lessons from the West’s Past” and notes how these old conflicts had several things in common that are important for understanding contemporary challenges in the world. These three revolts all involved ideologically-committed partisans that had transnational alliances and provoked foreign interventions into the domestic landscape of where these battles were fought, much like the situations we see today in the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia.

Tony quickly takes to challenging Dr. Owen on such an odd comparison, which might be likened to comparing apples and oranges. This leads to a discussion on the important role of understanding the past and how history may not repeat itself, but often rhymes (with John citing Mark Twain’s quote to this effect). We also spend a short segment on discussing the important role of ideas in motivating human behavior and international intrigue. Tony admits he is highly partial to “interest-based” explanations and downplays the role that ideology plays in fostering human action, often seeing ideologies as ex post facto justifications for behavior. John counters with some excellent examples where ideas motivated important change even against the interest of the individuals promoting that change, including Martin Luther. Tony yields this point but notes how some individuals, such as Henry IV who accepted Catholicism so he could conquer Paris, have very malleable belief systems. John agrees and we both note that there is a spectrum of individuals from those who hold fast to their ideologies and act vociferously upon them to others who willingly jettison their convictions at moment’s notice (and everything in between).

Following this theoretical and methodological discussion, we turn attention to the comparison between political Islam and various ideological conflicts in the West’s past, including the aforementioned Calvinist rebellions as well as the struggle between democratic capitalism and communism. John spells out what he means by Islamism and denotes why he focused his book largely on the Middle East and North Africa, where the heart of a new contemporary ideological battle between Islamism and secularism is taking place. He provides a nice history of this ideological tension dating back to the 19th century, covering the push towards secular modernization that occurred first with Mutafa Kemal Ataturk in Turkey and then the more religiously-based pushback following the failure of many of these secular regimes.

The remaining part of the interview is devoted to several of Prof. Owen’s six lessons from history. While we do not cover all six, we do spend significant time on four of them. First, John reminds us not to sell Islamism short in that ideologies that seem “out of place and time” often have significant staying power and are very salient to individuals who hold them. While those in the West may see Islamism as a throwback to a “medieval time,” partisans of this political theology see themselves as moving history forward. He likens this to the battle for liberal democracy in the face of monarchism during the 18th and1th centuries. Second, John points out that ideological struggles frequently involve foreign intervention so that the interveners can gain foreign allies in international struggles and so that those same intervening governments can quell domestic threats. Here we see comparisons between the civil war in Syria with England’s action of the Calvinist rebellions in the 1560s.

Third, Prof. Owen notes that ideologies are not monolithic and foreign policy should not be made on that basis. He introduces a new word into Tony’s vocabulary — polylithic. Here, the historical lesson of the West comes from the Cold War era when Harry Truman pursued a policy that differentiated between various flavors of socialism in Europe and communism, finding allies amongst some of the more anti-Soviet variants. He cautions policymakers from seeing Islamism as a single monolithic entity and notes how cooperation with Iran may be worthwhile in some instances. Finally, John urges us to watch the exemplar cases of Turkey and Iran to see how various ideologies play out over time as there is always a disconnect between promoting an ideology and having to “pick up the garbage” (i.e., rule on a daily basis). John pulls from his studies of The Netherlands in the 17th and 18th centuries to show how religious conflict was finally moderated and how the lessons of Dutch toleration were adopted by others including Britain and the US.

Prof. Owen finishes the discussion with his musings about what he learned throughout the process of researching and writing his book, including some reflections on his own biases going into the study. Recorded: December 29, 2014.

Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture.

Confronting Political Islam: Six Lessons from the West’s Past, by John Owen.

The Clash of Ideas in World Politics: Transnational Networks, States, and Regime Change, by John Owen.

Liberal Peace, Liberal War: American Politics and International Security, by John Owen.

Philip Jenkins on Religion & World War I.

Kevan Harris on Iran’s Islamic Revolution and Green Movement.

Matthew Derrick on the Geography of the Umma.

William Inboden on Religious Liberty, Foreign Policy, and the Arab Spring.

Jared Rubin on Christian and Islamic Economic History.

Daniel Philpott on Religious Resurgence and Democratization.

Monica Toft on Religion, Terrorism, and Civil War.

Jim Tonkowich on Converting to Catholicism

tonygill — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 09:00:23 +0000

After serving in the Presbyterian ministry for over two decades, our guest Jim Tonkowich, former president of the Institute on Religion & Democracy, made the decision to convert to Catholicism. We follow Jim’s journey in this interview that is part personal reflection and part sociological look at the state of Christianity today.

We begin our discussion by going back to Jim’s early upbringing and learn that his family was rooted in the Russian Orthodox Church. His curiosity in religion, though, was piqued while attending boarding school in Connecticut when he purchased a Bible and began reading it. Finding this reading difficult on his own he began participating in a Bible study group and also attended a “Ski and Skeptics” program that helped him to start making sense of Christianity, much the way a the box top picture on a jigsaw puzzle helps one align the pieces. We follow him through his college career at Bates College and his further investigations into theology and philosophy. At this point in his life, he is still not a Roman Catholic.

Jim’s varied travels them take him to Gordon Cromwell Theological Seminary where he begins studying for the ministry. His own religious participation at this time involved a non-denominational Protestant congregation and participation at Park Street Congregational Church where he met both his wife and Marcus Grodi (also a Protestant who would later “make the journey home” to Catholicism). It is at this point in the interview we begin a conversation about church polity — i.e., how congregations are organized in terms of authority structure. This theme appears numerous times in our discussion and is one of the key pieces to understanding Jim’s conversion to Catholicism. Jim also reveals how he read the early Church Fathers and how that influenced his long-term thought process.

Following seminary we then move cross-country to a Presbyterian church in Silicon Valley, California. We discuss Jim’s experiences as a pastor here as well as the various challenges that ministers face in their profession. While Jim was pleased with the folks in that congregation, he talks about the professional grind and loneliness that often accompanies the pastorate. It is at this point where he brings up the issue of pastoral formation — preparing clergy for the tough road ahead — and mentions that the Catholic Church tends to excel at this task relative to its Protestant counterparts. Again, we start to see the pieces of the conversion puzzle start to fall into place. We develop a sense that Jim’s conversion wasn’t a Pauline “flash of light on the road to Damascus,” but rather a long and intellectually-engaging path.

After his ministerial stint in California, it is back to the Washington DC area where he shares a number of other stories regarding a variety of experiences, including an interesting interview he had with a few Presbyterians and the questions of whether Catholics need to be rebaptized if they move in a Protestant direction. Here we reflect a bit upon attitudes towards Catholics and how this challenged Jim’s thinking further. We also return to the question of orthodoxy and church polity at this point before finally learning more about the final pieces to his Catholic conversion that involved his son attending Thomas Aquinas College and bringing a group of friends home from California, an event that led him into the National Basilica for Mass and a great sermon “worshipping among the nations.” We further go into a wide range of topics involving connections with other intellectuals who converted Catholic (e.g., Frances Beckwith, Robby George) and a number of other interesting topics related to theology and church organization.

The podcast finishes with a few of Jim’s insights from his e-book How (Not) to Become Catholic, which is a humorous self-reflection of his journey and a variety of mistakes he and others often make when looking across the Catholic-Protestant divide. Recorded: November 7. 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Jim Tonkowich’s web page (including biography another links)

How (Not) to Become Catholic, by James Tonkowich (an e-book on becoming Catholic)

The Liberty Threat: The Attack on Religious Freedom in America Today, by James Tonkowich.

The Coming Home Network International (mentioned in the podcast)

The Institute for Religion and Democracy (where Jim was the former president).

Called to the Ministry, by Edmund Clowney (mentioned in the podcast)

Wyoming Catholic College (mentioned in the podcast)

RELATED PODCASTS

Tim Kelleher on the Nicene Creed.

Jim Papandrea on the Church Fathers & Patristic Exegesis.

David Gallagher on Opus Dei.

William Donohue on Secular Sabotage.

David Campbell & Quin Monson on Mormons & Politics in America

tonygill — Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:00:58 +0000

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Are Mormons a “peculiar people,” particularly as it pertains to politics? Two LDS political scientists — David E Campbell of Notre Dame and J Quin Monson of Brigham Young University — join us in our first-ever dual guest appearance to discuss this topic. We examine a variety of research findings recently published in their book Seeking the Promised Land: Mormons and American Politics, also written with John C Green (who is not a Mormon).

After a bit of personal revelations by our two guests, we jump first into a bit of sociology of religion and explore the unique distinctiveness of the Latter Day Saints. Prof. Monson elaborates on what the authors call the “paradox of Mormonism,” wherein the LDS are a quintessentially American faith, but also “outside” of American culture. We examine whether Mormons can be called a distinct religio-ethnic group, perhaps akin to Jews. Both Dave and Quin share some personal experiences growing up and being educated outside of the Mormon heartland of Utah, and they school Tony in what it means to “speak Mormon.” In respect to this “paradox of Mormonism,” Tony wonders why the LDS remain one of the most devoutly patriotic subgroups in America despite having faced enormous persecution throughout their history.

We then turn to the political identify of Mormons and Tony points out that few, if any, presidential candidates ever make a whistle stop in Utah. Prof. Campbell explains that Mormons are remarkably cohesive in their Republican affiliation (much like African-American Protestants and Jews when it comes to the Democrat Party), but it wasn’t always this way. Dave covers the Mormon partisan re-alignment that has occurred over the past half century or so and in the process we review one of our favorite topics — the God gap, an increasing cross-denominational tendency for those who are deeply religious to prefer the GOP, while secular society has trended Democrat. (See our list of additional podcasts on this topic below.) We also cover a series of specific issues to note that Mormons are not necessarily monolithic in their views and often have political preferences that are a bit at odds with the Republican base, particularly when it comes to immigration. We discuss the reasons for this more pro-immigrant stance and how it might relate to the missionary goals of the LDS. Tony also brings up the issue of school choice vouchers, a GOP-favored policy, and how it went down to a resounding defeat in Utah several years back. Both Quin and Dave offer their explanations.

We follow the discussion on political preferences with an examination of whether or not religious leaders influence the voting behavior of the LDS laity. We talk a bit about the organizational structure of the church. Quin points out that there is virtually no politicking that goes on from the pulpit, but there are numerous conversations in the hallways of the ward (i.e., the LDS version of a parish or congregation). Tony brings up the recent case of Mormon involvement supporting Proposition 8, a California initiative that was designed to reverse a state supreme court ruling and define marriage as strictly between a man and a woman. The LDS Church and many of its individual members took a great deal of heat for their support of Proposition 8, and this leads us to a discussion of the efficacy of religious groups becoming closely involved in political causes.

We finish with some reflections on whether or not Mormons have broken the political “glass ceiling” with the recent presidential candidacy of Mitt Romney in 2008 and 2012. Dave brings up some thoughts about how this campaign both affected the perception of Mormons in politics — with Republicans becoming more friendly to the denomination while Democrats became a bit more negative on it — and how Mitt affected Mormonism itself. We close with the two authors giving their personal reflections on what they learned throughout the process of writing their book. Recorded: October 31, 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Seeking the Promised Land: Mormons and American Politics, by David E Campbell, John C Green, and J Quin Monson.

David E Campbell’s bio at University of Notre Dame’s political science department.

J Quin Monson’s bio at Brigham Young University’s political science department.

American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, by Robert Putnam and David E Campbell.

RELATED PODCASTS

Lynita Newswander on Mormons in America

Allison Pond on Being a Mormon Missionary

Patrick Mason on Anti-Mormonism and Mitt Romney

Michael McBride on Religious Free-Riding and the Mormon Church

David Smith on Episodic Religious Persecutions

Jeremy Lott on Mormons, Pope Francis, and Ugly Churches

Ken Wald on the Puzzling Politics of American Jews

Corwin Smidt on Religion, Elections and the God Gap

Gerald De Maio on the Electoral Religion Gap

Darren Slade on Missionizing North Korea

tonygill — Sun, 31 Aug 2014 08:00:20 +0000

Missionizing North Korea? Is that even possible? Darren Slade, a Ph.D. student of Christian theology and apologetics at Liberty University, covers some of the strategies that have been used and might be used when evangelizing one of the world’s most repressive and atheistic regimes.

After letting Darren plug a few of his other projects, we ask him how he ever became interested in the topic of missionizing North Korea. He shares a rather personal story about hearing of religious persecution in that country and how that led him to connect with the Voice of the Martyrs’ Safe Houses Project. We then cover some historical ground, reviewing the religious landscape of North Korea, how Christianity came to the Korean peninsula in the 18th and 19th centuries, and then how the Japanese occupation, communist revolution, and Korean War played a role in shaping the region. We also review the rise of the personality cult surrounding Kim Il-Sung and, to a lesser extent, Kim Jong-Il. This cult of personality plays a large role in determining missionary strategy, a topic we cover later.

Tony then asks Darren why any Christian would want to put North Korea on the evangelization map. Given the closed and tightly-closed nature of the society, not to mention the high level of persecution for Christians, one would imagine that this would be one place to avoid. Darren notes that Christians are not called to avoid difficult populations and also recognizes that even small gains in such a desolate nation represent major achievements.

Our conversation then turns to different missionary strategies. Darren divides up the efforts into two categories: humanitarian effort and covert evangelization. The former includes Christian foreign aid groups (e.g., World Vision) that enter the country to provide food, medicine, and clothing, as well as building and operating things such as soy milk and noodle factories. Building trust of foreigners is a significant part of this type of missionizing, given that years of propaganda has made the population leery of outsiders, most notably Americans and Japanese. Tony asks how overt proselytism is in these factories. We also discuss the bleak socio-economic situation of the vast majority of the population, which presents an interesting tension within the governing regime — while the juche philosophy of self-reliance would tend to downplay the role of foreign aid missions, the government fully realizes that it needs such aid to prevent a catastrophic collapse of their population.

Darren also talks about covert missionizing and here we have a number of creative methods of getting Christian missions in. Darren’s favorite tactic is “balloon drops,” wherein hydrogen-filled “mini blimps” are floated across the border from South Korea with Gospel tracts, Bibles, radios, and food/medicine. Low-frequency radio broadcasts are also used. Later, Darren suggests that writing Bible tracts on pictures of the Great Leaders, or hiding Bibles inside of books that have images of Kim Il-Sung on them might also be a useful strategy. Darren also offers up some cautionary notes on evangelization, warning that these efforts need to proceed with great patience and that it is important to respect the extant culture of the population. Building trust is of primary concern, and any efforts to attack the regime or otherwise engage in politics may be counterproductive.

We finish with Darren’s thoughts about the future of North Korea. While it is a bleak situation, he remains cautiously optimistic about changes that may be occurring. Recorded: August 25, 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Daren M. Slade on Academia.edu (where you can find links to his writings).

Voice of the Martyrs.

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Karrie Koesel on House Churches in China.

Karrie Koesel on Religion & Politics in China.

Kevin Cooney on Religion and the Rule of Law in China.

Kevin Cooney on Christianity in Japan.

Lan Chu on Catholicism in Vietnam.

Roger Finke on Religious Persecution.

Joel Fetzer on Confucianism and Democracy.

Religious Freedom and Political Flourishing: A Panel Discussion.

Religious Freedom and Economic Prosperity: A Panel Discussion.

Ani Sarkissian on Religious Liberty in the Post-Soviet World.

Catherine Wanner on Religion in Russia.

Hunter Baker on the Past and Future of the Religious Right

tonygill — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 08:00:01 +0000

The Religious Right has been a force to be reckoned with in American politics over the past four decades, but is its influence on the wane as many of its initial leaders and intellectuals pass from the scene? Prof. Hunter Baker, associate professor of political science and Dean of Instruction at Union University, talks about the past, present, and future of this movement based upon his most recent book The System Has a Soul.

Following some light banter about puppies, Prof. Baker provides us with a definition of what the Religious Right is, noting that it has been a term that has been ill-defined and often used to refer to poor and uneducated religious voters. Hunter points out that this movement has some deep and surprising intellectual roots. While religious involvement in American politics has a long history, he dates the current movement back to William Jennings Bryan and the Scopes Monkey Trial and then picks up the story in the mid-20th century with the emergence of a number of “neo-evangelical” thinkers such as Carl F.H. Henry and Frances Schaeffer. We review the interesting influence these thinkers had and note the surprising activist background of these individuals, including Schaeffer’s willingness to “listen to hippies” and pro-labor attitudes (things that are not normally associated with the media caricature of the Religious Right).

We then talk about the emergence of the movement in the 1970s with individuals such as Chuck Colson arguing for religion to take on a more public profile and events such as the Roe v Wade Supreme Court decision playing an important mobilizing effect. This is where Hunter explains how Christians began to reject “functional differentiation” and helps Tony understand what that social scientific-sounding terms means. While many neo-evangelicals supported Jimmy Carter’s bid for the presidency in 1976 and that many Democrats were supporters of the pro-life movement that was gaining ground, Hunter points out the shift that occurs to the Republican Party in the 1980s with Ronald Reagan’s embrace of these individuals with his famous quote, “I know you can’t endorse me, but I endorse you.” Our conversation also covers the extent to which this movement was merely an evangelical Christian movement or whether it entailed non-Protestant thinkers such as Richard John Neuhaus.

We review the public rise of the Religious Right in the 1980s with reference to Falwell’s Moral Majority and Robertson’s Christian Coalition, but Hunter points out that it was James Dobson’s Focus on the Family that probably had the bigger and more lasting impact on the movement. Again he points out that Dobson, who has a Ph.D., is indicative of the scholarly grounding of the movement contrary to a media opinion that paints the movement as anti-intellectual. Although the demise of the Moral Majority and the election of Bill Clinton as president are often seen as indications of the waning of the Religious Right in the 1990s, Hunter asserts that the movement took on a more grassroots approach and was able to develop a “deeper bench” by electing adherents to office and placing them in the Academy. He makes the claim that the real peak of the Religious Right movement was around 2005. Disillusionment with the presidency of George W. Bush and the apparent failings of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan aided in eroding the influence of Christian conservatives during this time. We also discuss the politics surrounding same-sex marriage and how losses in the battle to ban gay marriage have also chipped away at the movement’s strength.

We finally turn our attention to the future of the Religious Right. Tony asks to what extent the Tea Party represents a revitalization of the Christian conservatives, but Prof. Baker notes that the Tea Party represents a distinct social movement. Nonetheless, he raises the issue of religious liberty and how Christians are now seeing this as a major issue that may allow them to align with the more libertarian leanings of the Tea Party. We also chat about the recent writings of Jonathan Malesic and James Davison Hunter who argue that it may be a time for Christians to embrace secularism and perhaps take a “season of silence.” Hunter provides his thoughts on this topic and we ruminate about the future of Christian political activism in the United States noting that there have been periods of waxing and waning throughout the long course of history and we may be witnessing one of those waning moments. Recorded: July 23, 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Hunter Baker’s bio at his personal blog.

The System Has a Soul: Essays on Christianity, Liberty, and Political Life, by Hunter Baker.

The End of Secularism, by Hunter Baker.

Political Thought: A Student’s Guide, by Hunter Baker.

How Should We Then Live?, by Frances Schaeffer (mentioned in podcast).

RELATED PODCASTS

Hunter Baker on Secularism.

Hunter Baker on the Future of Higher Education.

Jon Shields on Democratic Virtues and the Religious Right.

Gerald de Maio on the Electoral Religion Gap.

Kevin den Dulk on Religion, Education, and Civic Engagement.

Luis Bolce on the Media and Anti-Fundamentalism.

William Donohue on Secular Sabotage.

A Special Thanks

tonygill — Sun, 08 Jun 2014 08:00:27 +0000

We take a short break and issue a big thanks to all the folks who have helped make this podcast series a success. In an attempt to emulate Russ Robert’s successful EconTalk podcast series, I sought and received support from Byron Johnson and Rodney Stark at Baylor University’s Institute for Studies of Religion. With the additional support of Frances Malone and Neil Luft, we’ve continued to deliver weekly discussions of great educational value to the general public at no charge. Four years and 200 episodes later we are still going strong.

Stay tuned for some more crescent fresh episodes in the coming weeks and years. We invite suggestions for topics and/or guests. And we ask all of our regular listeners to mention us to at least three other folks you know. Word of mouth is our main method of advertising and we appreciate every additional listener.

RELATED LINKS

Baylor University’s Institute for Studies of Religion.

Neil Luft’s Internet Imagineering.

Alex de Grassi’s website (he is the artist you hear on our theme music, one of Tony’s favorite guitarists).

The Political Origins of Religious Liberty, by Anthony Gill (a shameless plug).

Rendering Unto Caesar: The Catholic Church and the State in Latin America, by Anthony Gill (another shameless plug).

Cornerstone, a new blog by the Religious Freedom Project (which Tony is a member of).

Donald Kraybill on The Amish and Old Order Mennonites

tonygill — Sun, 18 May 2014 08:00:29 +0000

Most people might be able to identify an Amish person as someone who drives a horse and buggy, but how much do we really know about this ethno-religious group? Prof. Donald Kraybill, the Distinguished College Professor and Senior Fellow at the Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies at Elizabethtown College, helps to fill out our understanding of this fascinating community. The conversation also includes various references to Mennonites, both the modern, mainstream version and the “horse and buggy” (or Old Order) Mennonite community. (Note: While the term “horse and buggy” Mennonite may sound like a stereotypical reference term, Dr. Kraybill explains his use of this term.)

After sharing his (not-so-positive) thoughts on the TV series The Amish Mafia, Prof. Kraybill covers the historical background of the Amish and Old Order Mennonites, discussing their European (Swiss and German) roots in the Anabaptist movement and how they became differentiated in 1693. We follow their progress of migration out of Europe and explore why there are few (if any) Amish and Old Order Mennonite settlements in Europe today. Religious persecution pushed many of these religious adherents to the Americas in the early 18th century, with Pennsylvania’s attractive environment of religious freedom being a large attractor. Even though we often associate central Pennsylvania with the Amish today, Don notes that there are Amish and “horse and buggy” Mennonite communities existing in 31 US states today. Tony discovers that these groups are more widespread and numerous than he thought, with about 40 different Amish “tribes” in existence across the country.

Our focus then turns to the cultural and theological practices of the Amish specifically. We review the reasons for men’s bears, the long hair and covering of women, distinctive clothing, the aversion to electricity and automobiles, and language. Don explains how the stereotypical image of “no electricity usage” is misplaced. While the Amish refuse to be connected to “the power grid” as they view it as a means of pulling the community apart (likewise with autos), they are known to use diesel engines, batteries, and even solar panels to power machine tools, coffee makers, and even photocopiers! Prof. Kraybill also explains those popular images of horse teams pulling John Deere farming equipment, a question referred to us by Doug Johnston. Our discussion here also covers Gene Sjoberg’s question on closed-community marriage and the myth of “rumspringa.”

Prof. Kraybill also answers a number of questions submitted by listeners such as Dave Dixon and Bud Kellstedt pertaining to Amish and Mennonite theology. He explains why most Amish and Mennonites should not be labeled as “evangelical” (as is sometimes done in social science research) and the theological authority structure of these communities. The Amish and Old Order Mennonites do not have a structured system of theological education, although more modern Mennonites do maintain a seminary and professional clergy. We also dip a bit into views of soteriology and other theological beliefs.

We finish the interview with a discussion of how the Amish relate to the non-Amish communities around them. We answer Adam Gurri’s question on how the Amish have diversified their economies over the past several decades, with a lower percentage of Amish engaged in farming relative to other enterprises. Nonetheless, Don points out that the recent trend of consumers favoring “locally grown” produce has also provided a boon to these Old Order Anabaptists. We also review the 2006 Nickel Mines School shooting and how the Amish reacted with forgiveness, rather than vengeance. This allows Tony to ask Don a closing question about what he has learned from his study of the Amish throughout his career. Rocky Barkington, the official Golden Retriever mascot of Research on Religion, makes several guest appearances on this episode. Recorded: May 2, 2014.

Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies.

The Amish, by Donald Kraybill, Karen Johnson-Weiner, and Steven Nolt.

Amish Grace: How Forgiveness Transcended Tragedy, by Donald Kraybill, Steven Nolt, and David Weaver-Zercher.

The Amish Way: Patient Faith in a Perilous World, by Donald Kraybill, Steven Nolt, and David Weaver-Zercher.

Horse-and-Buggy Mennonites: Hoofbeats of Humility in a Postmodern World, by Donald Kraybill and James Hurd.

Concise Encyclopedia of Amish, Brethren, Hutterites, and Brethren, by Donald Kraybill.

See a full list of Prof. Kraybill’s books and other writings at his biographical link above.

RELATED PODCASTS

David Smith on Episodic Religious Persecutions.

Mike McBride on the Economics of Religious Leadership.

Mike McBride on Religious Free-Riding and the Mormons.

Ron Mock on Pacifism, War, and Terrorism.

Chris White on Debunking Ancient Aliens

tonygill — Sun, 27 Oct 2013 08:00:32 +0000

Were our historical ancestors visited by extraterrestrial beings who provided us with knowledge and technology? Is The Bible nothing more than a description of human encounters with ancient aliens? Were the Egyptian pyramids constructed with the help of flying saucers? And what about those strange statues on Easter Island? Surely, they could not be the work of primitive humans. On our special Halloween Week episode of Research on Religion, we look at these age old mysteries and more with Chris White, an independent filmmaker who produced a feature length film called “Ancient Aliens Debunked.” Chris also runs a website of the same name devoted to calling into question a number of assertions made on Ancient Aliens, the popular History Channel series.

Our journey back in time begins with an examination of Ezekiel’s vision of God on the banks of the Chebar River. In the Book of Ezekiel (Chapter 1), there appears to be a description of some type of hovering craft with “wheels in wheels” and led by creatures with four faces. Given that air travel was not common in this era, and imagination severely limited, it would seem only natural that this was a description of an alien spacecraft from a distant galaxy. But Chris White dissects this claim by noting how Ezekiel’s description of the throne of God was a fairly common one in that age, wheels were known to exist for functional and decorative purposes, and Ezekiel himself was perhaps the most detail-oriented and expressive writer in the Old Testament.

We travel next to ancient Egypt, where Tony challenges Chris to explain how a technologically backward society could build such monumental structures without the help of some futuristic technology. Tony admits that it might be possible to build the first couple levels of the pyramids merely by dragging large blocks on the ground, but once you get to the very top it would seem impossible to pile those stones unless you had some amazing flying machine. Chris takes this myth apart as well, pointing to some interesting new theories regarding inner ramps within the pyramids that would explain how the stones were transported to the top, as well as some of the internal chambers within the pyramids. He also addresses the issue of whether or not the alignment of the pyramids along a north/south axis could have been achieved without modern GPS mapping gizmos, and then explains that contrary to assertions by ancient alien theorists, the Egyptians probably did not have an incandescent light bulb.

Thoroughly disappointed that these two major claims about ancient aliens may not hold water, Tony then challenges Chris with one of his favorite ancient aliens tropes — the Nazca lines of Peru. These lines and various pictographs, including a drawing of an astronaut that looks like one of Tony’s kindergarten drawings of Neil Armstrong, apparently can only be seen from an aerial flyover. Moreover, the lines look suspiciously like a modern airport tarmac. Chris once again puts on his debunking hat and notes a number of problems with the alien interpretation of the Nazca line, including the ease in which they could be built and that it is also possible to see these drawings from a neighboring mountain. The fact that an alien life form capable of traveling over millions of light years would need a 15 mile long landing strip when they had hovering technology in Ezekiel’s day also makes the story pretty implausible.

But what about Easter Island?! How could an ancient tribe build statues so massive and why were they looking outward to the sea? Chris bats away all of the alien myths surrounding this site with relative ease noting how it was relatively easy to carve and transport these monolithic statues. We also look at Pacal’s rocket, an artistic inscription on a Mayan sarcophargus, that has been claimed to be an accurate drawing of a person in an interstellar space capsule, complete with breathing tubes and propulsion flames. Again, Chris shows that if you take a broader look at this claim, you can see how all the different artistic representations in this drawing are rather common in Mayan culture in ways that do not look at all like spaceships. And then it is on to the most amazing and implausible claims made by ancient alien scholars, namely that interstellar visitors detonated a nuclear weapon in ancient Pakistan. Not surprisingly, Chris White isn’t buying it and he explains why.

We finish with Chris’s thoughts on a miscellaneous mixture of topics including why the aliens stopped coming to Earth two thousand years ago, why so many people, including Tony, seem to be mesmerized by these ancient alien theories, and whether or not he has received any blowback from his efforts to debunk these theories. Overall, this was an interesting and entertaining interview. Recorded: October 17, 2013.

NOTE: This interview was recorded over Skype and there are several points during the recording where we have echoes and skips. These audio blips were due to interference with the Skype process and not interference by extraterrestial intelligence.

RELATED LINKS

Ancient Aliens Debunked, Chris White’s website where you can find a free download of the movie by the same name.

Jean-Pierre Houdin’s internal ramp theory of pyramid construction on National Geographic (referenced in podcast).

Secrets of the Great Pyramids, by Peter Tompkins (as referenced in podcast).

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Carolyn Warner on Religion & Generosity

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What motivates religious individuals to give, either of their time or money? And do such motivations vary across faith traditions? We look at the issue of generosity among religious communities with Carolyn Warner, professor of political science at Arizona State University, who reviews the findings of several studies she is conducting with co-researchers Adam Cohen, Ramazon Kilinc, and Christopher Hale. What makes this multi-faceted project so interesting is that, unlike previous studies that tend to focus only on Christian denominations in the U.S., Prof. Warner’s team compares Catholics and Muslims in four cities in Europe — Dublin (Ireland), Paris (France), Milan (Italy), and Istanbul (Turkey). In each city they survey and conduct some interesting experiments on both Catholic parishes and Muslim organizations. In other words, not only are the researchers examining Catholics in Ireland, but they make sure to study Muslims in that same city. Likewise, they find a Catholic population in Istanbul to compare as well.

We start with a discussion on the difference between charity and generosity, a difference that Carolyn and her co-authors find to be very important. Whereas the former term (charity) indicates a relationship that is vertical — between a “superior” handing down something to an “inferior” — the term generosity tends to be more horizontal in its meaning. Carolyn then talks about the general sociological issues involved in studying generosity, noting that individual and community giving represent a collective action problem and the acts of generosity can be viewed as either public goods or club goods depending on the target population of the generous acts. In general, club goods are directed towards members within the religious community (e.g., Catholics helping fellow Catholics in the parish), whereas the public good aspect of generosity refers to giving beyond the boundaries of one’s spiritual community (e.g., Muslims aiding non-Muslims).

We note that religion has always been attributed with generous giving and we review some of the general reasons why scholars believe religion has a positive effect. Carolyn mentions various aspects that have been explored in the past, including the role that community plays, the institutional setting, ritualistic behavior, heightened sensitivity to the plight of others that religious ideas impart, and theological exhortations to give. Given the inter-disciplinary composition of Carolyn’s research team, Tony asks how difficult it was for a social psychologist (Adam Cohen) and a political economist (Carolyn) to talk with one another and come to a mutual understanding of what might be at play in the act of generosity. Following this Carolyn explains the rationale for choosing the various research sites and the groups studied, including why the Gülen movement was chosen as the specific Muslim group to examine. This portion of the conversation encompasses the (supposedly) relevant differences in organizational structure and theology between Catholics and Muslims.

We then turn to the results of this study, focusing first on the findings from the semi-structured interviews. Carolyn notes how Catholics tended to frame their generosity in terms of “love of Jesus” and “love of others,” often pulling from Matthew 25:40, whereas Muslims tended to emphasize duty to God, noting that Allah had given individuals gifts and it was thus important to use those gifts to help others. We also discuss the differences in ritualistic giving behavior and how that motivates generosity within these two groups. Despite these differences, the research team discovered that both groups emphasize the “sense of community” as a motivational prompt for helping others. This sense of community is not only the desire to help others, but as with any other social organization, the desire to be with others. She also addresses whether or not these charitable activities were oriented towards in-group giving (i.e., club goods) or out-group (i.e., public good). This discussion is more nuanced than one might think with an interesting observation about Catholics in Istanbul and their socio-legal standing.

We finish with a discussion of the experiment that Carolyn’s team carried out. She describes the methodology and findings of the experiment. In addition to quirky problems that always arise when conducting social scientific research, the research team was surprised to find out that the Muslim participants did give their fee for participating in an experiment to a specific group, but not a group that they had initially anticipated. And if you are listening closely during this part of the interview you can hear Rocky J. Barkington, the official canine mascot of Research on Religion, providing some insightful commentary in the background. Carolyn then shares her broad-based conclusions regarding what the research team has found to date, including some thoughts on whether or not religious charity might substitute for government provision of social welfare. Recorded: May 29,2013.

RELATED LINKS

Carolyn Warner’s bio at Arizona State University.

Description of Warner’s generosity project at The Science of Generosity Initiative at the University of Notre Dame.

The Best System Money Can Buy: Corruption in the European Union, by Carolyn Warner.

Confessions of an Interest Group: The Catholic Church and Political Parties in Europe, by Carolyn Warner.

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