Our conversation begins, as usual, with a bit of background about our guest.  Prof. Iyigun explains what cliometrics — one of his academic specialties — is and also how he became interested in the study of religion and economics.  He notes that the events of September 11, combined with new advances in institutional economics, prompted him to look into the role that informal cultural institutions play in history.  He also gives credit to his mentor — Herschel Grossman — at Brown University for inspiring him to look beyond the typical empirical fare of economics.

We then jump into Murat’s new book and he lays out the three central questions that he seeks to answer: 1) Why and how did monotheism spread so rapidly and become swiftly intertwined with political authority?; 2) What has been the role of religion and ideology in conflict historically?; and 3) What were the lasting sociopolitical and economic effects of religiously-motivated conflicts?  As for the first question, we walk through Murat’s empirical study showing that, ceteris paribus, monotheistic civilizations tend to last longer than polytheistic ones and generally have greater territorial reach (a proxy for governing effectiveness).  Tony probes some of the methodological difficulties in measuring these phenomenon and Murat provides convincing answers as to why his study does show a significant effect for monotheism.  He then reviews some of the reasons why monotheisms might be better for obtaining sociopolitical stability, including the ability of ecclesiastics to provide credibility to rulers and lower the discount rate of individuals thus allowing for longer-term policies.

Turning to one particular monotheistic civilization — the Ottoman Caliphate — Dr. Iyigun provides some background information about how the Ottomans were able to rise to power and conquer a vast territory, extending across North Africa, into the Arabian peninsula, and eastward towards central Asia.  He discusses the “Gaza ideology,” which promotes the basis for an offensive military strategy allowing for conquest, which then becomes its own engine of growth, allowing for a further extension of rule.  The height of Ottoman rule from the mid-15th to the 17th centuries also has an important impact on Europe.  With the Ottomans pushing into the Balkans and close to the gates of Vienna, Europeans had to reduce their own territorial infighting in order to address this external existential threat.  Murat notes that while the Roman Church’s monopoly had come under challenge prior to the Protestant Reformation (e.g., the Hussites and Lollards), the definitive Protestant break fostered by Martin Luther was catalyzed by the Ottoman threat.   While acknowledging the role of the printing press and other explanations for Protestant success, Prof. Iyigun argues that military advances by the Ottomans forced Europeans to temper their own intra-faith hostilities and conflict, which in turn gave Christian dissenters a chance to take hold and expand on the continent.  His empirical work on the frequency and duration of intra-European conflict compared against Ottoman advances, along with qualitative evidence in the documents of Prince Ferdinand and others, shows this hypothesis to be rather convincing.

We move next to a set of miscellaneous (albeit important) questions about how this may have impacted the different economic development trajectories of the two regions — Europe and the Middle East.  Tony asks whether the threat of Europe, particularly in the form of The Crusades, might have played a similar galvanizing role in Ottoman economic development.  Interestingly, it does not and Murat explains what happens when the dominant power in the region faces such threats.  He notes three phases — denial that a threat exists, a conservative revival to “restore historic greatness” leading to a reliance on old institutions not suited for a new reality, and then finally emulation of the institutions of the rising power.  We also talk about another interesting facet of his book — the role of harem politics.  While most of his book is macro-historical, he does devote time to looking into the micro-foundations of military decisions in the Ottoman Caliphate and develops a fascinating thesis.  Here he argues that the nature of dynastic succession relied upon births that were from captured concubines and slave women, often from Christian lands (sometimes as far away as France).  He tests whether the heritage of the mothers of various sultans played a role in determining where military campaigns would take place.  Interestingly, valide sultans (queen mothers) who came from Christian regions (although who also converted to Islam), had an influence in tamping down military incursions into Europe.  While only a side chapter in Murat’s book, this may be one of the most interesting and surprising findings of his study (at least to Tony, who notes that “Moms matter” in history).

Prof. Iyigun finishes off with some broad lessons he learned from his decade-long study of this topic.  He notes that institutional, particularly informal (cultural) institutional, context is very important for structuring political and economic histories.  He also notes that while economic competition in a globalizing world is often viewed positively, cultural/ideological competition should be viewed the same way.  Finally, he learned that in a globalizing world, religion may become a more important focal point for bringing people together than nationalisms, a thesis advanced earlier by Samuel Huntington but which Murat intends to explore further in a more rigorous fashion.  And last, but not least, Murat talks about his love of the blues and how he came to play in the band Barrel of Blues, and then treats us to his own composition — Muqarnas.  Enjoy!  Recorded: July 8, 2015.

RELATED LINKS

Prof. Murat Iyigun’s personal website and CU bio at the University of Colorado Dept. of Economics.

War, Peace, & Prosperity in the Name of God: The Ottoman Role in Europe’s Socioeconomic Evolution, by Murat Iyigun.

Barrel of Blues (great tunes can be found here).

RELATED PODCASTS

Jared Rubin on Christian and Islamic Economic History.

Timur Kuran on Islamic Law & Economic Development.

Timur Kuran on Islamic Economics.

John Owen IV on Confronting Political Islam, Historical Lessons.

Matthew Derrick on the Geography of the Umma.

Mark Koyama on the Economics of Jewish Expulsions.

Rodney Stark on the Crusades.

Our interview begins with a gushing review of Larry’s work by Tony, who considers Prof. Iannaccone as an instrumental influence in his own work.  We talk about whether (and how) economics can be used to understand religious behavior.  Larry recounts the difficulty he had in getting other academics to take the economics of religion seriously, how he built this perspective up into a community that includes hundreds of scholars, and then Tony reminisces about his first encounter with this eclectic economist.

We then turn to the main question at hand, which is to examine why some of the most demanding religious faiths tend to have the most committed members and also tend to grow faster than religions that “cost less.”  This puzzle has been one that has vexed the minds of sociologists of religion for decades, including the great Dean Kelley in his book Why Conservative Religions are Growing.  We contextualize this puzzle in terms of a simple economic framework.  One would naturally expect that if an organization imposes high costs on its members, fewer people would be interested in joining (as per ye olde economic textbook rule — the more you charge for something the less you get of it).  Tony also notes that in his classes he asks students to design what they would consider to be a successful religion and the majority of responses tend to be “laid back, low cost” type faiths.  But then Larry runs through a list of the more strict denominations — e.g., Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, ultra-orthodox Jews — and we see that these are some of the most vibrant religious communities out there.  He also reviews some of the evidence for the strength of these “high cost” religions, including regular attendance, financial contributions (as percentage of member income), extracurricular participation in church groups, and intensity of friendship networks.

The next segment of the interview focuses on why requiring seemingly irrational sacrifices and stigmatizing behavior helps build group strength.  This is set into the context of collective action theory, a major topic of research in the social sciences.   There are two principal reasons why high-cost religions are successful.  First, high-cost sacrifices screen out free-riders — i.e., people who want the benefit of the group without having to contribute much to the provision of it.  Larry notes that religious congregations have certain features that categorize them as “club goods,” wherein the quality of the good or service provided is dependent upon how many individuals contribute whole-heartedly to the provision of the good.  We talk about churches where all members sing with passion tend to be more enjoyable than churches where people merely mumble their way through the hymns.  A high-cost sacrifice, or a stigmatizing behavior that might ostracize an individual in the broader culture, gets the “mumblers” (free-riders) to reconsider whether they want to join or not.  Those who do join have self-selected into a pool of individuals who will be fervent in their participation.

The second reason for the success of strict religions is that the members who do enter (or remain in) the congregation do participate fervently to the congregation and the overall benefits obtained are much higher than the costs of the sacrifice or stigma.  In other words, people who do pay the high costs of strict sects find out that they got a good bargain.  Larry and Tony provide their own illustrations of how this works.

We finish the interview with a brief discussion of how this theory can apply to other groups ranging from prison gangs to environmental groups.  Larry also details an experiment he conducted with Jason Aimone, Michael Makowsky, and Jared Rubin that provided further evidence in support of this theory.  While his previous work on this topic back in the 1990s was based upon a number of empirical sources, including survey research, this new experiment (based upon the voluntary contribution method game) shows how the theory still stands under a completely different lens of scrutiny.  Tony notes how this research represents a major contribution to political economy and should net Larry a Nobel Prize.  (Yeah, he is that excited about it.)  Larry then ends with a short discussion of where the boundaries of the economics of religion need to be pushed.  Recorded: September 8, 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Larry Iannaccone’s bio at Chapman University’s Institute for the Study of Religion, Economics, and Society.

Association for the Study of Religion, Economics, and Culture.

Note: Prof. Iannaccone’s publications are generally in academic journals that are behind paywalls, but can be accessed with educational accounts. The following are a list of the ones we talked about and readers are encouraged to visit them at their leisure:

“Endogenous Group Formation via Unproductive Costs,” Review of Economic Studies (2013) 80, 1215-36.  With Aimone, Makowsky, and Rubin.  (This is the article with the experimental game.)

“Sacrifice and Stigma: Reducing Free-Riding in Cults, Communes, and Other Collectives, “Journal of Political Economy (1992) 100, 271-91.

“Why Strict Churches Are Strong,” American Journal of Sociology (1994) 99, 1180-1211.

“The Market for Martyrs,” Interdisciplinary Journal of Research on Religion. (2006) 2.  (Online journal free with registration.)

“Religious Extremism: The Good, the Bad, the Deadly” Public Choice (2006) 128, 109-29.  With Berman.

RELATED PODCASTS

Larry Witham on the Economics of Religion.

Eli Berman on Religious Terrorism.

Sean Everton on Dark Networks.

Michael McBride on Religious Free-Riding and the Mormon Church.

Michael McBride on the Economics of Religious Leadership.

Colleen Haight on the Oracle of Delphi.

Jared Rubin on Christian and Islamic Economic History.

Timur Kuran on Islamic Economics.

Donald Kraybill on the Amish and Old Order Mennonites.

Robert Nelson on Environmentalism as Religion.

Russ Roberts & Anthony Gill on Religion and Religious Liberty.

]]> http://www.researchonreligion.org/church-organization/larry-iannaccone-on-sacrifice-stigma-and-the-economics-of-religion/feed 5 http://www.researchonreligion.org/historical-topics/mark-david-hall-on-religious-minorities-in-the-u-s-founding http://www.researchonreligion.org/historical-topics/mark-david-hall-on-religious-minorities-in-the-u-s-founding#comments Sun, 29 Jun 2014 08:00:56 +0000 http://www.researchonreligion.org/?p=3331 Most people have heard about the role that Congregationalists, Anglicans, and so-called Deists have played in the founding of the United States, but what about Jews, Quakers, and other religious minorities.  Prof. Mark David Hall, the Herbert Hoover Distinguished Professor of Politics at George Fox University, returns for his fourth episode to document the important influence exercised by individuals affiliated with lesser-known denominations.  This discussion is informed by the scholarship of various authors in a volume Mark co-edited with Daniel Dreisbach entitled Faith and the Founders of the American Republic (see below for link). For those not familiar with Prof. Hall’s work, we start off the interview with a quick summary of his interest in religion during the Founding Era and what importance that may have for our contemporary society.

The first religious minority we focus on are Jews.  With only about 2,000 Jews present during the time of the Revolutionary War, one might not think this group would have much influence.  Based upon the writings of Prof. David Dalin, Mark notes that Jews were tolerated fairly well throughout colonial history and that George Washington had a very favorable relations with Jews, including Haym Solomon who helped for fund the Continental Army.  Mark cites from Washington’s letter to a Newport synagogue to show how Washington’s view on religious freedom reflected more than mere tolerance.  He also covers Jewish influence on Alexander Hamilton (educated by Sephardic Jews) and John Adams (a Christian supporter of Zionism), as well as the direct action of Jonas Phillips to help end religious tests in America.

We next talk about the role of Islam, with Mark summarizing the chapter in his volume written by Tommy Kidd.  The influence of Islam on the American Founding and subsequent development of the republic was very indirect.  First, it was noted that many of the slaves who were exported to the Americas came from Islamic regions of Africa thus there were most likely some Muslim slaves, though the numbers are not certain.  Islam was also used in revolutionary era rhetoric to set up the trope of despotism, sometimes used by the Anti-Federalists in their arguments pertaining to the constitutional structure of the new republic.  The other important realm in which Islam comes to play in the formation of America’s identity is through the contact with Barbary pirates, one of the first major foreign policy conflicts that had to be managed by John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.  Mark also addresses the controversial interpretation surrounding the Treaty of Tripoli, which is often as evidence that the U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

We then move to the topic of Deism, not necessarily a denomination, but nonetheless a real belief system that was floating around in late 18th century America.  Most folks are probably more familiar with Deism given that it is often associated with major historical figures of the time such as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.  Mark defines what Deism is, a “squishy definition” at best.  He then discusses whether any of these folks fell solidly within the Deist camp using the notion of an “interventionist God” as a baseline.  Mark notes that several of the Founders most people associate with Deism — such as Franklin, Jefferson, and Washington — did make reference to an deity who does intervene in human history, most notably George Washington who wrote quite a bit about the role of Providence.  When it comes down to it, Mark says that maybe only one or two of the major historical Founders — Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine — would qualify as strictly Deist in their philosophy.  Our conversation on Deism tends to focus on the writings of Paine with Mark pointing out that even despite Paine’s Deist bent, he cites Scripture quite liberally in writings such as Common Sense knowing that the American public was more in tune with an orthodox view of Christianity as compared to a more Enlightenment philosophical posture.  Mark also uses the general repudiation of Paine’s “Age of Reason” by many of the intellectual leaders of the U.S. at the time to illustrate that Deism may not have been as deeply woven into American elite culture as is now commonly assumed.  (It is also at this point in the interview where Mark compliments Tony’s social scientific acumen.  Just sayin’.)

We then finish up talking about the use of The Bible in the writings of American Founders, making reference to the scholarship of Daniel Dreisbach, and a handful of other Christian denominations including the Quakers (the denominational affiliation of George Fox University) and the Baptists (the affiliation of Baylor).  We spend some time on the thought and influence of John Dickinson and John Hancock, a flamboyant albeit philanthropic Calvinist.  Mark also gives us a sneak preview of his current research, something that will probably be heard next year during the Fourth of July!  Recorded: June 5, 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Mark David Hall’s bio at George Fox University.

Faith and the Founders of the American Republic, edited by Daniel Dreisbach and Mark David Hall.

Roger Sherman and the Creation of the American Republic, by Mark David Hall.

America’s Forgotten Founders, edited by Gary Gregg and Mark David Hall.

RELATED PODCASTS

Mark David Hall on Roger Sherman, Puritan Patriot.

Mark David Hall on Religion and the Founding Fathers.

Should Christians Have Fought in the U.S. War of Independence?

Chris Beneke on Religion, Markets, and the Founding Era.

John Fea on Religion and the American Founding.

Evan Haefeli on the Dutch Origins of Religious Tolerance.

Jonathan Den Hartog on the Spiritual and Political Life of John Jay.

Gary Scott Smith on Presidential Faith.

Thomas Kidd on the Great Awakening.

What better way to celebrate 200 episodes of great educational podcasting than to look to the future of the social scientific study of religion with Prof. Bradley Wright, associate professor of sociology at the University of Connecticut!  Prof. Wright is engaged in new project called SoulPulse (link here) that harnesses the growing popularity of social media and cellular technology to study the daily spirituality of individual folks like you.  Even the grade school kids we have in studio for a field trip agree that SoulPulse represents the hottest trend in social scientific research methods.

Prof. Wright begins the podcast by discussing what SoulPulse is — a two week survey that is conducted twice daily at random intervals designed to probe a person’s spiritual experiences in relation to a set of other variables (e.g., amount of sleep, work stress, etc.).  Following an initial online screening questionnaire that takes about 10 minutes to complete, participants in this study are asked to fill out two surveys per day that take roughly 2-3 minutes to complete.  The surveys can be conducted on a cell phone or at a computer and attempt to capture what the research subject is experiencing and feeling at the moment.

Brad provides some detail about how this project came about, the struggles to get it off the ground, the researchers involved, and a discussion of the methods behind the survey.  This brings up issues ranging from “big data” to sampling and response bias.  Tony notes his fear of “big data,” but Brad puts him at ease by noting that while there are some technological similarities between harvesting “big data” and SoulPulse, the survey he is conducting is completely voluntary.  One of his volunteer subjects happens to be your host, Tony Gill, and thus our discussion of this study takes on a personal flavor as Tony mentions a number of features he likes about the study, as well as some minor concerns he has.

Brad runs down a list of intake and day-to-day questions that the survey asks.  The intake questions include the “usual suspects” of demographic data including age, gender, education, etc.  These are things that do not change of substantial periods of time.  There are also a few “not-so-usual” questions being asked including things about general health and religious beliefs and practices.  The day-to-day questions that research subjects receive on their phone twice a day tend to be things that are more “temporal,” including amount of sleep the night before, emotional mood at the moment, and one’s feelings towards God and others.  Brad notes that the advantage of “experience sampling” is that you capture somebody’s state of mind right at the moment they are living in, rather than having to have respondents retrospectively remember what they were doing hours or days earlier.  Many of these day-to-day questions are only asked once or twice during the two week survey, and Brad explains why.  We discuss the general motivation for what questions were being included and some of the difficulties he has encountered in inserting new questions.  While the SoulPulse study has a huge benefit in that it can constantly be modified as new questions arise, there are issues pertaining to research ethics that have to be cleared with ye olde “internal review board” (the bureaucracy that approves testing on human subjects).

A significant portion of our interview revolves around methodological issues, such as sampling bias, self-selection, question ordering, and a few other things that are common to survey research but which have a different flavor in “experience sampling.”  We find out that Tony really likes the sliding scale provided in SoulPulse as it allows for more fine-grained answers, but he debates Brad over whether or not the ability of the respondent to go back and change one’s answers based upon other questions is a good thing or not.  Typically in survey research you do not want subjects to change their answers to early questions based upon later questions, but Tony provides a slightly different take on this issue given how SoulPulse is set up.

We finish up the interview with some of the initial results from the survey, including who is using SoulPulse.  Interestingly, the respondents tend to skew a bit older than one would expect given that cell phones are the main survey methods.  Apparently us old folks can use smart phones!  Brad also reviews a number of other demographic characteristics of the survey respondents as well as some of the correlations that they are seeing.  What is the relation between sleep habits and spirituality?  Does preparing food make you more aware of God?  What about spending time on the computer … does it make you more or less spiritual?  Does one’s closeness to God vary throughout the day?  Does beer make one more religious?  Brad answers several of these questions and suggests what is next with the project.  Recorded: May 14, 2014.

RELATED LINKS

Bradley Wright’s bio at the University of Connecticut’s Department of Sociology.

SoulPulse, the study’s website where you can sign up for the study.

Bradley Wright’s personal blog.

Christians Are Hate-Filled Hypocrites … and Other Lies You’ve Been Told, by  Bradley R.E. Wright.

Upside: Surprising Good News About the State of Our World, by Bradley R.E. Wright.

RELATED PODCASTS

Bradley Wright on Christian Stereotypes.

Bradley Wright on the Upside of Life.

Alexander Ross on Religion & Happiness.

Frank Newport on Survey Research and America’s Religiosity.

Jeff Levin on Judaism and Health.

Jeff Levin on Religion and Health.

Rodney Stark on How Religion Benefits Everyone.